María, how did
you start with “África Vive”?
It all started when the
Inter-American Development Bank (Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo, BID) asked
an American man and a Honduran woman to carry out a study about black people in
Latin America. They came to Uruguay - they didn't plan to come to Argentina
because they had been told there were no black people here. However, in Uruguay
someone told them they knew a black Argentine woman who was setting up an
organization little by little, so they came here and contacted me and Miriam Gomes, from the
organization “Unión Caboverdiana” (Cape Verdean Union). So we did a
presentation for them and told them where black Argentines were - in the
interior of the Buenos Aires province and the interior of the country. Thanks
to this meeting we were invited to Washington, were we did a course and carried
out a study about black people in all Latin America. For three years in a row
we went to the Afroamérica XXI congress, where all black people from Latin
America met. So in 1997 I founded “África Vive”.
Which was your goal at the time?
To carry out a census to know how
many we were. The first thing I did was a census of my family: we were called
"Lamadrid" because black people carried their owner's surname. But my
family comes from the Zulu ethnic group in South Africa. Then, with Miriam, we
started to conduct the census in the street - we would stop every black man and
woman we saw and ask them if they wanted to take the census. If they said yes,
we would go to their house and take their responses. This was in 1998. At the
same time, I suggested the School of Philosophy and Humanities at the Buenos
Aires University to give lectures about racial discrimination and the School
asked me to give the lectures myself. So I suggested giving a seminar for
Menem, who had said in Washington that there were no black people in Argentina,
and tell him they were here. So they told me that I was wrong, that I was
crazy, that it would have no impact. Two days later, they called and said it
was a good idea, that black men and women had never entered the Congress. So
they let us use the annexe to the Congress and we did a three-day seminar,
bringing black men and women so that they could see them, realize they were
there, hear what problems they had, and know why they were invisible. And well,
I liked it a lot and we had a big impact. So Miriam and I asked them to
integrate African history within the university, because she is a teacher and a
historian. They accepted our proposal, and Miriam gave classes until 2001 at
the University of Buenos Aires (UBA) - for free, because they didn't pay her.
Eventually, she had to leave because she needed money, like everybody else.
Could you get any financing for the foundation?
Not at the beginning - this was
driven by my own efforts, with my money. Then the Kellogg Foundation showed up
and asked us what project we had so that they could finance it for two years.
We presented a project about culture, workshops, seminars. Because when we
started gathering people from the community to give them our presentations,
which were for small groups, in houses, we realized people needed work. So we
asked them how we could help and they suggested creating tapestries. We looked
for a triangle loom, one that was cheap, so that they could work at home, and
they liked it a lot - keep in mind we're talking about family heads. There was
a great deal of interest. We started with 10 people and then there were
40 men and women. Because men realized that if the women weaved, they
could go out and sell the tapestries, and that way we managed to integrate men
too.
Do the tapestries show African motifs?
No, they show Argentinian motifs -
we haven't been able to recover any African ones yet. Two years later,
Kellogg's financing ended, because that's their policy, but we asked them if
they could stay for one more year and they generously agreed and asked us for
another project. So we proposed the Microcredit for Heads of Household, a
project I had seen in Venezuela and which I adapted to Argentina, and they gave
us financing for one more year. First, we had to give 36 workshops, which
lasted almost 3 months, in order to assess who we were giving credits to
and for what, because we provided up to 300 pesos a month. That was great,
because with that money the women with the looms could buy directly from the
wholesaler and this reduced the cost quite a lot. And we made arrangements to
get them craft fair booths so that they could sell there on weekends.
What was the reaction of the Afro-Argentine community when you appeared?
It wasn't easy. They thought that
perhaps we had been “bought off” by politicians, that we were going to tell
them: You have to go on a picket line—here, take a thousand pesos. People were
more into politics than into their ethnic roots. It was really hard for
us—that's why we had to give those 36 workshops, to also speak about what
it was to be black, about our history. We focused on young people and after we
gave them the workshop, parents would show up to see what we were teaching them
and so they would start with “I remember...”, “I know this...” And this was
something we were very interested in, because this was a way to recover our
history, to know why no one talked about it, why they didn't preserve it.
And why was it, María?
They have kept to themselves. They
have kept to themselves in the sense that they don't like to be branded as
“black.” Most of them live in the Buenos Aires province and they don't want to
come to the capital for fear of being rejected. Let me tell you an anecdote. In
one of the workshops, young women were with their mothers and grandmothers, and
when we started to tell them they needed to wake up, that black men and women
had their rights and didn't even know it, one of the girls told me: “What if
you start with all of this and they take us back to Africa?”
Is that why we don't see them in the street?
You don't see us because we have
been erased; they have erased us, white people.
And how have you managed to reverse that denial process of “non-existence”?
Where does your pride emerge from?
Firstly, because my aunt would
always tell me: “Wherever you walk, that's you.” And so I would go along the
street full of pride thinking I was everything. Then I was lucky enough to get
training in Washington. The first time I went to the Afroamérica XXI
congress, in 1996, the coordinator told us: “You need to understand that
you are going to have trouble in your country. You all need to say why you are
here.” And we all talked about what had happened to us—we said we were
invisible. He told me: “You need to write to the government and tell them who
you are—start with yourself.” When I got back, I went to the BID office in
Buenos Aires to seek support and they told me: “No. You're only one black
woman! How can you tell me you want support?!” And I was dead set on going
every week. I would go and tell them: “Look, you know I always get an
invitation and I need…” And they said: “No, no, we're not going to pay any
attention to you.” So I got tired and wrote to the president of the BID, whom I
had met in Washington, and said: “Your bank here is not paying attention to
me.” Two days later, the people at the BID knew everything from my nickname to
my phone to where I lived: “Please come, María, we want to help you, we want to
listen to you.” It's not easy to be a black woman who says there are
two million black people in Argentina. People tell me: “You're crazy!
That can't be true!”
But, before going to Washington, you already had that pride.
Yes. When I started dancing, I
already had that pride. I always told my nephews they should go to the corner
and play some music, because a drum always calls people's attention. And that,
when someone asked them where they were from, they should charge them 1 peso,
because they don't know we're here, they don't know we exist.
You want to levy a tax on white people for having denied you all.
(Laughs) For not knowing.
And did they do
it?
Yes! We got out of the annexe to
the Congress and when the guards saw us with the drum, they told us: “No music,
no dancing and no drum playing here”. I said “Oh yeah?” And then I took the
drum and started playing.
You play the
drum?
(Laughs) No, I dance better
that I play, but at that moment, we had to play and scream for pride. So we
went to the White Tent in front of the Congress, where teachers were protesting
at that time, and we sat there to play and dance candombe. There were also
Bolivian and indigenous people with their music. And people were saying: “No,
no, we want the black people to play again.” Ah! You see? We're here! And we
are Argentinian.
Do you have any support from other Argentine human rights organisms or the
government?
None. But last year I went to a
congress in Barbados, invited by a lady who works at the BID there. And this
lady said at the congress: “In Argentina, your people are not included, and you
need to fight for their inclusion, you have to send letters to everybody and
travel to the Congress that will be held in South Africa.” These words before
representatives from all Latin American organisms had a big impact. So when I
came back here, to shut me up, they called me from the Congress to give me a
diploma recognizing the black men who had fought as soldiers for
independence. Recognition was for black men - black women don't exist
either for the Argentine Congress. No, we don't exist. They are male
chauvinists. But, anyway, we did get to send one of the young ones to South
Africa.
What are your
goals for the long-term?
Being able to conduct the census
across the country, which would take about two years and for which we need
financing, because we need to travel to all provinces and advertise it in the
media. In the short-term, getting funds for another Microcredit Project for
Heads of Household, which is urgent, because unemployment is very high in
the community. I also want to recover our origins, our history since we were
taken out of Africa as slaves, because there's nothing left - our past is in
the minds of old men and women. When they die, we'll be left with no identity.
Have you looked
for support at the South African Embassy?
Yes, the Embassy proposed that I
make a profile of everything I've done so far to see where they can help. The
first thing I asked them is to know where I come from, where the ethnic groups
are, and if we can contact them and see if they have any records of the slaves
that were brought here.
And haven't you
received any national or international funds to conduct the census?
No, no. With the article they
published about us in Clarín, we received calls from 40 people, from Entre
Ríos, Río Negro, Mendoza... I need to send them the request so that they can
answer the census in their provinces and then send the forms back. A chain has
been formed. We are going to conduct our own census.
Have you been knocking on doors with no answer?
Look, I think I don't have any
knuckles left. But I'm interested in conducting the census for two reasons:
first, I like conducting censuses, because if there's a woman and you go there
alone, you could write a book with the story she'll tell you. And second,
because it's a way to charge the INDEC (National Institute of Statistics and
Censuses), which is in charge of conducting censuses here, to go and tell them:
“You'll have to pay me for even the paper.” The South African Ambassador told
me: “You're starting the wrong way.” But they won't let me do it right! We sent
a letter to the INDEC telling them: “Please include a little checkbox to show
the person's descent.”
And they refused?
They didn't answer. It's like the
ambassador said: “You're starting things the wrong way.” It's like I'm trying
to conduct this census by force, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to conduct
this census. "No" is not an option for me.
And how do you feel about that silence?
Look, I don't know how I feel… the
thing is I'm tired of them. So I look for support in the United States, because
I know I won't find any support here. In Honduras, in 1998, Afroamérica XXI was
created, which includes all Latin American organizations. I started with them
and I'm still with them, because it is thanks to them that we're surviving, and
they also guide me. When I was arrested at the airport, they acted immediately,
black organizations sent protest letters to Argentine embassies in their
countries, to everyone. They were shocked when this happened to me. And they
tell me: “That was lucky, because now you'll find support.” So far, I've only
found promises. I haven't found anything else. But I keep fighting, mainly for
the young. So that young people can open their mind, know what rights they have
and don't let themselves be “insulted” - as it were - because they are black.
That they are not afraid to go to university “because they won't know anything”
o avoid going anywhere because “that's not their place.” That's my fight.
María, do you believe you're going to win that fight?
I'm going to answer you with a
phrase from Martin Luther King: I have a dream.
And with your courage, I'm sure you're going to make it.
Yes, but don't forget King was
murdered.
But that won't
happen to you.
Are you sure?
This is María Lamadrid. Courageous
María.
“We shall overcome someday. We are
not afraid. Deep in my heart, I do believe we shall overcome someday”
sang Joan Baez in the 60's.
Forty years have passed, but
the fight is still the same, and her song just as necessary.
You will overcome, María.
You will see your
dream.
Without a shot being fired.
We hope.
We desire.
©Viviana Marcela Iriart
Buenos Aires, December 2002
translation ©Luciana Valente
Photos © Ana Cea
To whom I apologize for using them
without her permission, because I could not contact her.
